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Forum : Music : Joining Sabam: yes or no?
From time to time, a new thread about sabam is opened. The start of each thread is different but always ends the same... Sabam sucks!
Now to be honest, I guess a lot of you guys/girls only see the downsides of Sabam because they had a bad experience with Sabam, because it was in the news that Sabam wasn't very “generous” in redistributing the collected rights or maybe just because you're frustrated you are not good enough to become a member...
To end all discussions about Sabam, because some users (ao. Jemenfish) insist on it and to have one clear and open thread about this issue... I'm starting this one.
It's not the regular “Sabam = Satan” thread here... it wants to be THE thread about Sabam where artists or users who have experience with the issue can have their say. Not just anything. It has to become the thread on the forum where users that consider joining Sabam can find usefull information on the pro's and con's of joining this organisation.
Any off-topic or non-constructive remarks (intended to insult or to be funny) will be deleted or edited. I'll personally guarantee to any user considering joining Sabam they will find on-topic info from other users that have already taken the step or have good information.
I browsed previous “Sabam” threads in order to find good information that could help you in the evaluation proces whether to join or not to join Sabam.
Some of it will be posted here later-on.
Please only reply if serious and in a FAQstyle.
Now to be honest, I guess a lot of you guys/girls only see the downsides of Sabam because they had a bad experience with Sabam, because it was in the news that Sabam wasn't very “generous” in redistributing the collected rights or maybe just because you're frustrated you are not good enough to become a member...
To end all discussions about Sabam, because some users (ao. Jemenfish) insist on it and to have one clear and open thread about this issue... I'm starting this one.
It's not the regular “Sabam = Satan” thread here... it wants to be THE thread about Sabam where artists or users who have experience with the issue can have their say. Not just anything. It has to become the thread on the forum where users that consider joining Sabam can find usefull information on the pro's and con's of joining this organisation.
Any off-topic or non-constructive remarks (intended to insult or to be funny) will be deleted or edited. I'll personally guarantee to any user considering joining Sabam they will find on-topic info from other users that have already taken the step or have good information.
I browsed previous “Sabam” threads in order to find good information that could help you in the evaluation proces whether to join or not to join Sabam.
Some of it will be posted here later-on.
Please only reply if serious and in a FAQstyle.
Question: Is it true that you can prove the origin of a track by sending a tape/partiture/any recording to yourself... with the datestamp as official proof?
Answer: Sabam won a case against someone waiving a registered letter, so there goes that idea, right? No amount of self-adressed mail is going to weigh up in a court against a well-filled in document of a copyright organisation.
And of course your word and honor also has no legal value whatsoever in a court of law.
(copypaste from Jemenfish)
Here are some parts to remember. These are BASIC rules that you SHOULD know when you sign on to sabam and it's quite frankly amazing to sometimes see people say 'yeah I wrote myself into sabam because I'm getting a bit more gigs but don't worry not all my songs' yedi yeda.
1. Sabam signs artists with their real name, not their band name. This is in essence logical; As such, when you enter a song, you can attribute song production to someone else than the performing artist. As such, however, do note that, in signing AND ALSO RETROACTIVELY, they are presumed to protect ALL your work. This will also mean that, when your best mate is putting out a vinyl and you want to give him a track for free even when you got some airplay, well...YOU CAN'T. It's an all or nothing situation. Think about that BEFORE signing because there's no going back (they also protect your songs a while if you should leave...)
2. The use of copyrighted material in songs is highly regulated. This is why you read so many 'X sued Y' cases over some popular tunes. Does this mean they would go after your track for a measly 20 seconds of ripping some Aphex/Boards/whatever? No. Would this change if they were all hosted on, say, a website like electrobel, or you'd all host them on your server? Yes. It might.
3. Signing on to Sabam means every venue has to pay fees for having you play there live, including pubs, cellars, someone's dorm. Whatever. Additionally, us concert organisers have to fill in sheets AFTER paying them filling in each one of your songs you played, complete with minutes and seconds. Now, consider that, in order to receive your allocation, YOU need to correspond to them each and every track, and US organisers need to bother filling in tons of paperwork. Does this happen? Yeah, in the larger clubs who get regular controls on this and actually pay people for this kind of paperwork. Will most others be bothered? No. But they still have to pay the fee. You just will never see it.
4. They DO have a website, and it's in both French and Dutch perfectly understandable. Ok, there is a LOT of text and most of it is written in the Ye Olden Belgian Language style, but the basic rules are in there.
www.sabam.be
So in short, are they the big bad evil schnoomie? No, I don't believe so. However, they're also highly uninteresting unless you have REGULAR airplay or tour REGULARLY in the popular clubs. Otherwise you will make yourself a LOT more uninteresting to the smaller venues/organisers
1. Sabam signs artists with their real name, not their band name. This is in essence logical; As such, when you enter a song, you can attribute song production to someone else than the performing artist. As such, however, do note that, in signing AND ALSO RETROACTIVELY, they are presumed to protect ALL your work. This will also mean that, when your best mate is putting out a vinyl and you want to give him a track for free even when you got some airplay, well...YOU CAN'T. It's an all or nothing situation. Think about that BEFORE signing because there's no going back (they also protect your songs a while if you should leave...)
2. The use of copyrighted material in songs is highly regulated. This is why you read so many 'X sued Y' cases over some popular tunes. Does this mean they would go after your track for a measly 20 seconds of ripping some Aphex/Boards/whatever? No. Would this change if they were all hosted on, say, a website like electrobel, or you'd all host them on your server? Yes. It might.
3. Signing on to Sabam means every venue has to pay fees for having you play there live, including pubs, cellars, someone's dorm. Whatever. Additionally, us concert organisers have to fill in sheets AFTER paying them filling in each one of your songs you played, complete with minutes and seconds. Now, consider that, in order to receive your allocation, YOU need to correspond to them each and every track, and US organisers need to bother filling in tons of paperwork. Does this happen? Yeah, in the larger clubs who get regular controls on this and actually pay people for this kind of paperwork. Will most others be bothered? No. But they still have to pay the fee. You just will never see it.
4. They DO have a website, and it's in both French and Dutch perfectly understandable. Ok, there is a LOT of text and most of it is written in the Ye Olden Belgian Language style, but the basic rules are in there.
www.sabam.be
So in short, are they the big bad evil schnoomie? No, I don't believe so. However, they're also highly uninteresting unless you have REGULAR airplay or tour REGULARLY in the popular clubs. Otherwise you will make yourself a LOT more uninteresting to the smaller venues/organisers
Quote:
Originally posted by : reaman
Question: Is it true that you can prove the origin of a track by sending a tape/partiture/any recording to yourself... with the datestamp as official proof? (copypaste from Jemenfish)
That's been known to circulate as 'city myth'. It can actually be proven wrong by following some simple logic: If you WOULD go to court brandishing a registered letter and the defense would state how you could prove your cd was actually in it, you have no foot to stand on. Registered letters do not state contents. As to regular non-registered mail and using that as a proof, that will be laughed away. It's really simple to open any bubbled container over heat, insert a cd of your choice, and seal it shut.
Now, you could arguably spend 15 euro on DHL or similar packages where the contents CAN be filled in but if you're going to be paranoid enough to do that you might as well become a member of Sabam...
Quote:
Originally posted by : Jemenfish
1. Sabam signs artists with their real name, not their band name. This is in essence logical; As such, when you enter a song, you can attribute song production to someone else than the performing artist. As such, however, do note that, in signing AND ALSO RETROACTIVELY, they are presumed to protect ALL your work. This will also mean that, when your best mate is putting out a vinyl and you want to give him a track for free even when you got some airplay, well...YOU CAN'T. It's an all or nothing situation. Think about that BEFORE signing because there's no going back (they also protect your songs a while if you should leave...)
a question: i'm in a band that is registred with sabam, but my name isn't registred yet (because i came in some months after the band was born). would all my ebel-stuff be copyrighted if i register with sabam for the songs i make with the band?
Songs are under an artist name, not a band name. Never noticed the more famous acts crediting each and every song to who wrote it? It's the same thing basically. If you didn't write the songs, don't bother joining. The one that wrote them is a member and that's all that counts.
is, in this case, remixing a song the same as writing a song?
the problem is for a sabam registred artist is that the song can't sample more than 3 seconds from original material, unless u pay for it ureselfs, u can't share the music freely without the people sharing ur music online having to pay 30c per download, u oblige ur label to pay sabam monney for releasing ur music, ....
non registred artist have much more possibilities for releasing music... ofcourse they can only count on sales or livesets income...
than again every euro payed for u doesn't necessarily end up in ur pocket , more likely to pay for britneys new car or whatever...
non registred artist have much more possibilities for releasing music... ofcourse they can only count on sales or livesets income...
than again every euro payed for u doesn't necessarily end up in ur pocket , more likely to pay for britneys new car or whatever...
my question is: if you remix a well known artist and end up on a cd, do you get money from sabam or do you have to be with uradex to get money? (are you the writer or a musiscian?)
I think that remixing a song would mean that u first have to pay sabam for the rights of using the original...
afterwards all use of the remix would be payed to u I guess...
maybe it depends on the releasing status ( did u release it or the original artist...) but I'm not sure on this matter
afterwards all use of the remix would be payed to u I guess...
maybe it depends on the releasing status ( did u release it or the original artist...) but I'm not sure on this matter
i think you become an "arrangeur". If you are member of sabam, the original writer of the song gets a percentage of the rights and as a remixer you get a little part of the rights (i think it is around 10 or 12 %...).
Quote:
Originally posted by : strekie
my question is: if you remix a well known artist and end up on a cd, do you get money from sabam or do you have to be with uradex to get money? (are you the writer or a musiscian?)
Quote:
Can't remember how that works, but you need to pay a percentage fee for using the original (same thing as using a sample really in sabam terms I think). Furthermore all the usage of the remix then gets a standard fee for radio transmission, usage on cd etc., and THAT percentage would be divided.
Erghm...clear? Otherwise I look it up.
Erghm...clear? Otherwise I look it up.
if the artist gives you samples, you still have to pay?
Man, sabam is an "only pay situation" it's only interesting if you're the new Barco morsato or milk inc... No need to register with sabam if you're only a minuscule part of belgian electroworld, or summn like that
harry newyaer!
harry newyaer!
indeed! you feel pay more than you will get!
Quote:
Originally posted by : HarryPoppins
Man, sabam is an "only pay situation" it's only interesting if you're the new Barco morsato or milk inc... No need to register with sabam if you're only a minuscule part of belgian electroworld, or summn like that
harry newyaer!
Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by : Jemenfish
Quote:
Originally posted by : reaman
Question: Is it true that you can prove the origin of a track by sending a tape/partiture/any recording to yourself... with the datestamp as official proof? (copypaste from Jemenfish)
That's been known to circulate as 'city myth'. It can actually be proven wrong by following some simple logic: If you WOULD go to court brandishing a registered letter and the defense would state how you could prove your cd was actually in it, you have no foot to stand on. Registered letters do not state contents. As to regular non-registered mail and using that as a proof, that will be laughed away. It's really simple to open any bubbled container over heat, insert a cd of your choice, and seal it shut.
Now, you could arguably spend 15 euro on DHL or similar packages where the contents CAN be filled in but if you're going to be paranoid enough to do that you might as well become a member of Sabam...
I have to disagree with you on that. The 1994 Copyright Law clearly states that an artist is always protected by copyright law from the moment that the (original) work you make is made public.
Sending a CD with your music in a registered letter to yourself is an act of 'making public'. And in a court of law, the slip you receive when registering mail is seen as valid evidence of a time stamp because: when registering this envelope and receiving it back (almost immediately in this case ;)) you have to sign for a sealed and approved package. In other words, YOU have to check the package before you open it (to see if there's no visible external damage) and THEN sign for reception of the package.
Due to this official outbring with a date and time approved by our beloved official posting group, it makes it official. Just don't open the package until in court.
And there's no saying that you 'can just put another CD in afterwards'. First of all, it will show (even with some age-old tricks like hot steam etc etc). second of all, that would put the Post Group in a tight spot, for they would have approved a registered letter that was not conform their regulations and thus this would be a fraudulous act by the postmaster.
IZ.
Quote:
Originally posted by : strekie
if the artist gives you samples, you still have to pay?
If and when this artist is registered with SABAM or affiliates AND if and when these samples are officially outed on eg. a CD or in a live performance, yes, you have to.
IZ.
"La jurisprudence et la doctrine exigent qu'une création remplisse deux
conditions afin d'être considérée comme une œuvre et donc être protégée
par le droit d'auteur.
La création doit être matérialisée de manière à pouvoir être
communiquée à autrui. Une idée, un concept, une méthode de travail ou
une théorie scientifique ne peut donc en tant
que telle être protégée par le droit d'auteur.
D'autre part, il doit s'agir d'une création originale, c'est-à-dire une création intellectuelle propre à son auteur.
Le droit d'auteur naît automatiquement par la création même d'une œuvre
originale. A la différence des droits de propriété industrielle, il
n'est donc pas nécessaire
d'accomplir des formalités administratives pour l'obtention d'un droit
d'auteur.
Toutefois, il est utile de prendre des mesures probatoires telles qu'un
enregistrement ou un dépôt afin de prouver que l'œuvre existait à une
date déterminée. L'accomplissement de ces mesures
probatoires ne garantit pas que l'œuvre est protégée par le droit
d'auteur. Elles permettent seulement de prouver vis-à-vis des tiers
(par exemple des contrevenants), et le cas échéant devant les
Cours et tribunaux, que l'œuvre existait à une date déterminée. [...]
En vertu du droit commun, il existe deux moyens d'obtenir une date
certaine. Ainsi, vous pouvez vous adresser à n'importe quel bureau
d'enregistrement du <a href="http://minfin.fgov.be/">Service public
fédéral Finances</a>.
Il n'est possible d'enregistrer auprès d'un tel bureau que des
documents "papier" (donc pas de disquettes, pas de cd-roms, etc.).
L'enregistrement d'un acte
"non tarifié" (donc des documents autres que, par exemple, les contrats
de location ou de vente de biens immobiliers qui sont définis dans le
Code des droits d'enregistrement, d'hypothèque et de greffe)
coûte actuellement (2005) 25,00 EUR par document. Dans ce cas, un sceau
mentionnant la date est apposé sur le document.
Une seconde possibilité est l'établissement par un notaire d'un acte
authentique relatant l'existence de l'œuvre. Le notaire peut conserver
les documents apportés et leur attribuer une date. Vous
pouvez aussi, par exemple, déposer vos disquettes et cd-roms auprès
d'un notaire qui conservera ces exemplaires chez lui.
Un autre moyen pour prouver la date de création d'une oeuvre est
l'enveloppe i- DEPOT du Bureau Benelux des Dessins ou Modèles (BBDM
ci-dessous). L'enveloppe i-DEPOT comprend deux compartiments. Vous
introduisez
dans chacun des deux compartiments un document identique décrivant ou
représentant le plus clairement possible votre création. Vous pouvez
mettre ce document sur le support de données de votre choix: papier,
microfilm,
disquette, cd-rom etc. Vous refermez l'enveloppe et vous la renvoyez au
BBDM. Dès réception, votre enveloppe i-DEPOT est scellée par le BBDM.
Une vignette mentionnant clairement la date et l'heure de réception est
fixée sur les deux compartiments de l'enveloppe. Le compartiment 1 vous
est retourné. Vous conservez cette partie en lieu sûr: son
contenu restera ainsi secret. Le compartiment 2 est conservé, sans être
ouvert, pendant une période de 5 ans dans les archives du BBDM. A tout
moment, vous pouvez réclamer – une fois – le second compartiment
pour le produire comme moyen de preuve dans une action judiciaire. Le
délai de conservation de 5 ans peut être prolongé indéfiniment par
période additionnelles de cinq ans.
L'enveloppe i-DEPOT coûte actuellement (2005) 45 EUR pour une période
de 5 ans et 65 EUR pour une période de 10 ans. Vous pouvez commander
l'enveloppe i-DEPOT aussi via l'Office de la Propriété
Intellectuelle. Vous trouverez de plus amples informations sur <a href="http://www.bbtm-bbdm.org/fr/pdf/brochure_idepot.pdf" target="_blank">
http://www.bbtm-bbdm.org/fr/pdf/brochure_idepot.pdf</a>.
Certaines organisations privées offrent également un service pour
déposer des documents (dans certains cas sous forme électronique) et de
les pourvoir d'une date.
Il ne s'agit toutefois pas dans ces deux derniers cas (i-DEPOT et
organisations privées) d'une «date certaine» au sens de la loi, mais
d'un moyen pour prouver la date d'existence du document, dont le
juge appréciera la force probante."
the entire text here : http://mineco.fgov.be/intellectual_property/patents/author_law_fr_001.htm
conditions afin d'être considérée comme une œuvre et donc être protégée
par le droit d'auteur.
La création doit être matérialisée de manière à pouvoir être
communiquée à autrui. Une idée, un concept, une méthode de travail ou
une théorie scientifique ne peut donc en tant
que telle être protégée par le droit d'auteur.
D'autre part, il doit s'agir d'une création originale, c'est-à-dire une création intellectuelle propre à son auteur.
Le droit d'auteur naît automatiquement par la création même d'une œuvre
originale. A la différence des droits de propriété industrielle, il
n'est donc pas nécessaire
d'accomplir des formalités administratives pour l'obtention d'un droit
d'auteur.
Toutefois, il est utile de prendre des mesures probatoires telles qu'un
enregistrement ou un dépôt afin de prouver que l'œuvre existait à une
date déterminée. L'accomplissement de ces mesures
probatoires ne garantit pas que l'œuvre est protégée par le droit
d'auteur. Elles permettent seulement de prouver vis-à-vis des tiers
(par exemple des contrevenants), et le cas échéant devant les
Cours et tribunaux, que l'œuvre existait à une date déterminée. [...]
En vertu du droit commun, il existe deux moyens d'obtenir une date
certaine. Ainsi, vous pouvez vous adresser à n'importe quel bureau
d'enregistrement du <a href="http://minfin.fgov.be/">Service public
fédéral Finances</a>.
Il n'est possible d'enregistrer auprès d'un tel bureau que des
documents "papier" (donc pas de disquettes, pas de cd-roms, etc.).
L'enregistrement d'un acte
"non tarifié" (donc des documents autres que, par exemple, les contrats
de location ou de vente de biens immobiliers qui sont définis dans le
Code des droits d'enregistrement, d'hypothèque et de greffe)
coûte actuellement (2005) 25,00 EUR par document. Dans ce cas, un sceau
mentionnant la date est apposé sur le document.
Une seconde possibilité est l'établissement par un notaire d'un acte
authentique relatant l'existence de l'œuvre. Le notaire peut conserver
les documents apportés et leur attribuer une date. Vous
pouvez aussi, par exemple, déposer vos disquettes et cd-roms auprès
d'un notaire qui conservera ces exemplaires chez lui.
Un autre moyen pour prouver la date de création d'une oeuvre est
l'enveloppe i- DEPOT du Bureau Benelux des Dessins ou Modèles (BBDM
ci-dessous). L'enveloppe i-DEPOT comprend deux compartiments. Vous
introduisez
dans chacun des deux compartiments un document identique décrivant ou
représentant le plus clairement possible votre création. Vous pouvez
mettre ce document sur le support de données de votre choix: papier,
microfilm,
disquette, cd-rom etc. Vous refermez l'enveloppe et vous la renvoyez au
BBDM. Dès réception, votre enveloppe i-DEPOT est scellée par le BBDM.
Une vignette mentionnant clairement la date et l'heure de réception est
fixée sur les deux compartiments de l'enveloppe. Le compartiment 1 vous
est retourné. Vous conservez cette partie en lieu sûr: son
contenu restera ainsi secret. Le compartiment 2 est conservé, sans être
ouvert, pendant une période de 5 ans dans les archives du BBDM. A tout
moment, vous pouvez réclamer – une fois – le second compartiment
pour le produire comme moyen de preuve dans une action judiciaire. Le
délai de conservation de 5 ans peut être prolongé indéfiniment par
période additionnelles de cinq ans.
L'enveloppe i-DEPOT coûte actuellement (2005) 45 EUR pour une période
de 5 ans et 65 EUR pour une période de 10 ans. Vous pouvez commander
l'enveloppe i-DEPOT aussi via l'Office de la Propriété
Intellectuelle. Vous trouverez de plus amples informations sur <a href="http://www.bbtm-bbdm.org/fr/pdf/brochure_idepot.pdf" target="_blank">
http://www.bbtm-bbdm.org/fr/pdf/brochure_idepot.pdf</a>.
Certaines organisations privées offrent également un service pour
déposer des documents (dans certains cas sous forme électronique) et de
les pourvoir d'une date.
Il ne s'agit toutefois pas dans ces deux derniers cas (i-DEPOT et
organisations privées) d'une «date certaine» au sens de la loi, mais
d'un moyen pour prouver la date d'existence du document, dont le
juge appréciera la force probante."
the entire text here : http://mineco.fgov.be/intellectual_property/patents/author_law_fr_001.htm
Myeah...he just debunked the 'I can send myself enveloppes and be protected' theory. Can't be bothered to translate, should be obvious sending enveloppes is not very legally binding.