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Forum : E-Bel News : the downside of contest compilations
I think there is one major downside to the compilations that come forth from contests.... (version en français très (très) courte en bas)
These compilations kinda represent the skills from the artists that are on it but most of them are just guys like you and me that post a song, get constructive comments and then alter and edit some things to make a track better.
I totally understand that for reasons of anonimity sharing your music before voting begins is not possible. But not being able to share your music prior to the voting and thus not being able to optimise the song is a major loss of quality for the compilation. It's useless to give it a percentage but I'm going to do it anyway: my guess is that a compilation could gain 15% to 20% in quality if songs could undergo some evaluation proces before they get evaluated for the contest. I know there are other music fora on the net where you can get constructive comments too but I don't feel like signing in on other sites if I have Electrobel.
Can't we think of some voting proces where we can exclude the voting-for-friends but still have the abilty to expose your song to critics on electrobel prior to the voting for the contest?
Asking the question is sometimes also answering it:
Maybe it should be made possible to hear the music before the contest timelimit and comment on it (except for the user that posted the song???)
or
Maybe the compilation shouldn't follow so quickly the voting of the contest so users can still change some minor things to it. The only thing that benefits from this is the quality of the compilation and that isn't my only concern (to be honest).
This message tells you I'm the kind of user that isn't very sure of himself and finds these contests a very very fun way to get creative and would like to have it organised in a slightly other way
(ne pas avoir des commentaires contructifs avant le processus d'évaluation pour le contest diminue la qualité des chansons et donc de la compilation - je me demande s'il n'y a pas moyen de trouver une façon de pouvoir quand même partager ses chansons pour le contest et aussi exclure le votage pour "les amis".)
These compilations kinda represent the skills from the artists that are on it but most of them are just guys like you and me that post a song, get constructive comments and then alter and edit some things to make a track better.
I totally understand that for reasons of anonimity sharing your music before voting begins is not possible. But not being able to share your music prior to the voting and thus not being able to optimise the song is a major loss of quality for the compilation. It's useless to give it a percentage but I'm going to do it anyway: my guess is that a compilation could gain 15% to 20% in quality if songs could undergo some evaluation proces before they get evaluated for the contest. I know there are other music fora on the net where you can get constructive comments too but I don't feel like signing in on other sites if I have Electrobel.
Can't we think of some voting proces where we can exclude the voting-for-friends but still have the abilty to expose your song to critics on electrobel prior to the voting for the contest?
Asking the question is sometimes also answering it:
Maybe it should be made possible to hear the music before the contest timelimit and comment on it (except for the user that posted the song???)
or
Maybe the compilation shouldn't follow so quickly the voting of the contest so users can still change some minor things to it. The only thing that benefits from this is the quality of the compilation and that isn't my only concern (to be honest).
This message tells you I'm the kind of user that isn't very sure of himself and finds these contests a very very fun way to get creative and would like to have it organised in a slightly other way
(ne pas avoir des commentaires contructifs avant le processus d'évaluation pour le contest diminue la qualité des chansons et donc de la compilation - je me demande s'il n'y a pas moyen de trouver une façon de pouvoir quand même partager ses chansons pour le contest et aussi exclure le votage pour "les amis".)
You have a point and I'm sure lots of people will agree and would like some comments too prior to the voting. But you pinpointed the problem yourself: voting for friends... So it HAS to be anonymous. What you see in other contests is that a (semi)pro jury gives comments (in best case scenario) or selects some songs.
I think the idea of some sort of directory (like the styles) on ebel with anonymous songs on them that can be commented isn't a bad idea. Like that the people who want comments can get them and the others can have an idea of how exactly others fill in the the very broad concept of 'groove' (damn I still hate that word, nevertheless: I'm still in :)))
I think the idea of some sort of directory (like the styles) on ebel with anonymous songs on them that can be commented isn't a bad idea. Like that the people who want comments can get them and the others can have an idea of how exactly others fill in the the very broad concept of 'groove' (damn I still hate that word, nevertheless: I'm still in :)))
i can review all the songs and give advices if you want
and no favoritism, i hate you all equally :D
and no favoritism, i hate you all equally :D
Before even thinking about any other compilation, maybe you should see with S-cape in a month or two if he even managed to break even, mno?
Quote:
Originally posted by : Jemenfish
Before even thinking about any other compilation, maybe you should see with S-cape in a month or two if he even managed to break even, mno?
sure, ofcourse and you're right (did I say "I catch your drift" yet)
it hypothetical and imho it's highly presumable that there is going to be another contest compilation some day.
i more or less agree
i think the darkcontest compilation also came, becuase of the event organised round it. would be quite silly to release a compil for the amontobin and mrscruff remix contest we held a year ago.. Imo the tracks that won should.can be remade, remastered, remixed afterwards..
about the "exclude the voting-for-friends" part, i dont really think people pm there mates to vote massively for their own songs (wasnt scootchy 2 times winner? duz this mean he had all his buddies vote for him..?)
i think the darkcontest compilation also came, becuase of the event organised round it. would be quite silly to release a compil for the amontobin and mrscruff remix contest we held a year ago.. Imo the tracks that won should.can be remade, remastered, remixed afterwards..
about the "exclude the voting-for-friends" part, i dont really think people pm there mates to vote massively for their own songs (wasnt scootchy 2 times winner? duz this mean he had all his buddies vote for him..?)
Quote:
Originally posted by : HarryPoppins
wasnt scootchy 2 times winner? duz this mean he had all his buddies vote for him..?
thanks I was just depressed due to a lack of friends... I feel better now. ;)
There is a solution, the winners can improve their tunes before releasing it on the compilation.
Second : don't try to explain to me that having the vote on ebel doesn't allow massive friend's votes, even if your anonymous. Gimme the number of PM exchanged during this period between members, please. (That doesn't mean lots of people use that trick).
Only a jury of people you don't know can assure you that objectivity(only & only if they do their work correctly, but that's a rare attitude…).
A contest is fun, these considerations aren't.
Let's have a contest !
(Le con teste ! ^^)
n(^ù^)°
PS I prefer having fun, even in a contest I don't win, or participate…
Second : don't try to explain to me that having the vote on ebel doesn't allow massive friend's votes, even if your anonymous. Gimme the number of PM exchanged during this period between members, please. (That doesn't mean lots of people use that trick).
Only a jury of people you don't know can assure you that objectivity(only & only if they do their work correctly, but that's a rare attitude…).
A contest is fun, these considerations aren't.
Let's have a contest !
(Le con teste ! ^^)
n(^ù^)°
PS I prefer having fun, even in a contest I don't win, or participate…
actually the system i put for the dark contest made voting for friends quite hard.
as the tracks were in a different order for everyone, and no information was visible for any of them.
It doesn't make friend voting impossible, just much harder ^^
It's actually when you realize that you can't put your track on ebel and have it heard/commented how much you'd miss that if ebel was gone :)
Problem with having anonymous tracks in the muzik section, is that the author will probably let himself known by answering to comments either in the comments or by pm ... It's just human :)
Or then should we make all anonymous songs have anonymous comments ?
+ most of the time you'd be able to guess the artist just by reading the description ^^
as the tracks were in a different order for everyone, and no information was visible for any of them.
It doesn't make friend voting impossible, just much harder ^^
It's actually when you realize that you can't put your track on ebel and have it heard/commented how much you'd miss that if ebel was gone :)
Problem with having anonymous tracks in the muzik section, is that the author will probably let himself known by answering to comments either in the comments or by pm ... It's just human :)
Or then should we make all anonymous songs have anonymous comments ?
+ most of the time you'd be able to guess the artist just by reading the description ^^
i dont like the 'expert jury' coz they always have their personal (often very explicit) taste so for them it s also hard to vote objectively (if they even want to try and do that). massive public voting is better in that respect. when chances for cheating are reduced, off course.
unless the contest is announced like 'IDM contest curated by Autechre'. then the judging party is part of the deal.
about editing, i think it should be the case that tracks selected for the contest are allowed to be edited (with commenting from others on ebel) before the release.
unless the contest is announced like 'IDM contest curated by Autechre'. then the judging party is part of the deal.
about editing, i think it should be the case that tracks selected for the contest are allowed to be edited (with commenting from others on ebel) before the release.
it was Scape himself starting about a new compilation... (yes, when the dark comp earned it s money back)Quote:
Originally posted by : Jemenfish
Before even thinking about any other compilation, maybe you should see with S-cape in a month or two if he even managed to break even, mno?
Quote:
Originally posted by : ZARk
Problem with having anonymous tracks in the muzik section, is that the author will probably let himself known by answering to comments either in the comments or by pm ... It's just human :)
Or then should we make all anonymous songs have anonymous comments ?
+ most of the time you'd be able to guess the artist just by reading the description ^^
anonymous songs could/should get anonymous comments and a standard description like "groove contest entry - please give constructive comments"
if the comments are anonymous the user who made the song can't know who to PM to about the song...
even with your system - that was very ingenious and efficient btw - "cheating" was still possible. Just giving an exemple : S-cape could have PM'd: look for the song with the sound of a crow/raven in the intro. I can give this exemple without rising suspicion... his song was the best by far!!
Because the stakes were high (Bifff and compil etc.) there must'v been some cheating. One just can't exclude cheating as long as we vote ourselves (but that's half of the fun, not?)
Yes, doing a new compilation is a money question, and I hope, if the Groove Contest start well, that we will have, on the road, something similar to the BIFFF to offer to the winner. Put a groove live act somewhere in a big party till february is not impossible ^^
Anyway, i agree with Zark, the Dark Contest was fairplay (easy to say for a winner, I know) the voting system reduce to the max inequalities.
Take care Reaman, to much perfectionism kill what is good ^^
I dont agree with comment until the end of vote. Why ? Because its not the usual ebel way, its a contest. Give you yourself. No ICZ, no comments, no ebel for help you ! Just a contest, like an exam, the teacher wont help you !
Anyway, i agree with Zark, the Dark Contest was fairplay (easy to say for a winner, I know) the voting system reduce to the max inequalities.
Take care Reaman, to much perfectionism kill what is good ^^
I dont agree with comment until the end of vote. Why ? Because its not the usual ebel way, its a contest. Give you yourself. No ICZ, no comments, no ebel for help you ! Just a contest, like an exam, the teacher wont help you !
Quote:
Originally posted by : S-cape
Yes, doing a new compilation is a money question, and I hope, if the Groove Contest start well, that we will have, on the road, something similar to the BIFFF to offer to the winner. Put a groove live act somewhere in a big party till february is not impossible ^^
Anyway, i agree with Zark, the Dark Contest was fairplay (easy to say for a winner, I know) the voting system reduce to the max inequalities.
Take care Reaman, to much perfectionism kill what is good ^^
-S
It's not my main goal to make the validity higher because there I believe it was a good system, just want to make it possible a track gets comment prior to the voting proces and make the tracks and thus the compilation better... I strongly believe all would benefit.
Just a question... Isnt it because you have already finish your track...?
I dont agree with this, because that mean that at soon you finish it, you have help and critic. No comments, no help.
One shot for everybody.
I dont agree with this, because that mean that at soon you finish it, you have help and critic. No comments, no help.
One shot for everybody.
Quote:
Originally posted by : reaman
Quote:
Originally posted by : S-cape
Yes, doing a new compilation is a money question, and I hope, if the Groove Contest start well, that we will have, on the road, something similar to the BIFFF to offer to the winner. Put a groove live act somewhere in a big party till february is not impossible ^^
Anyway, i agree with Zark, the Dark Contest was fairplay (easy to say for a winner, I know) the voting system reduce to the max inequalities.
Take care Reaman, to much perfectionism kill what is good ^^
-S
It's not my main goal to make the validity higher because there I believe it was a good system, just want to make it possible a track gets comment prior to the voting proces and make the tracks and thus the compilation better... I strongly believe all would benefit.
Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by : dtr
i dont like the 'expert jury' coz they always have their personal (often very explicit) taste so for them it s also hard to vote objectively (if they even want to try and do that). massive public voting is better in that respect. when chances for cheating are reduced, off course..
This, together with the threats both me and S-cape received after BIFFF, made me decide not to do bigger contests (and corresponding compilations) anymore. It's all so very biased, even in the so-called big contests in Belgium (and IMHO we don't HAVE big contests in Belgium, none of them has any meaning or weigth outside of our little country), the jury is sometimes even 'persuaded'.
But public voting can be even more of a nuisance than it's worth; Think about the 'Bring your friends and vote for your band' contest (Emergenza?)where the entrance fee is something like 15 euro and you have to raise your hand for voting? It's a system easy to abuse, as those people have obviously found a way to do. 'Sheep mentality' and all. I actually know one band desperately buying tickets for everyone in the finale so they could win and go on to the European finale just to get some European gigs.
Anyway, the bottomline for a compilation is: What would be the use of making a compilation if the sole benefit is to see your name on a cd and copies were only sold to your mates? I have a cd printer and booklet printer at home, if that's your goal, I can make you happy in a minute. The DCC cd could/should be made into, shall we say, a 'business card' for electrobel, which could get you more gigs, maybe even distribution for the next one. Sadly enough, even with the offer I gave of buying a box and asking for one person to hand them out at an event for promotion (so NEW people would get them and not just friends of the artists), not even one person seems to be able to be arsed to do that. So yeah, you can keep churning out compilations, and maybe break even with each and everyone of them over time, but unless you get distribution, is there really a point? IMHO S-cape should have broken even in a matter of days in a community with hundreds to thousands of users and 70.000 visitors last month. Since as far as I know he didn't even sell 100 yet, there's a problem, ain't there? With the box of 25 I took I think I have 1/3th or 1/4th of the sales so far. That's....just pitiful.
We need help, of course, but as usual when somebody do something, the rest go sleeping...
Thats the real downside of a contest
Thats the real downside of a contest
Quote:
Originally posted by : Jemenfish
Anyway, the bottomline for a compilation is: What would be the use of making a compilation if the sole benefit is to see your name on a cd and copies were only sold to your mates? I have a cd printer and booklet printer at home, if that's your goal, I can make you happy in a minute. The DCC cd could/should be made into, shall we say, a 'business card' for electrobel, which could get you more gigs, maybe even distribution for the next one. Sadly enough, even with the offer I gave of buying a box and asking for one person to hand them out at an event for promotion (so NEW people would get them and not just friends of the artists), not even one person seems to be able to be arsed to do that. So yeah, you can keep churning out compilations, and maybe break even with each and everyone of them over time, but unless you get distribution, is there really a point? IMHO S-cape should have broken even in a matter of days in a community with hundreds to thousands of users and 70.000 visitors last month. Since as far as I know he didn't even sell 100 yet, there's a problem, ain't there? With the box of 25 I took I think I have 1/3th or 1/4th of the sales so far. That's....just pitiful.
nail
head
Fish , i have to say you missed something...
I allready replied that I am willing to distribute them extra 25 on the taking back event, but not the entire night because I play there...
It's true that some sad things come to light with the DCC, for me the saddest things are :
1) Not even all the artists on the cd made an effort to get a copy, and certainly not to spread them. I allready sold 17 cd's, i know Aphone took 15 .....I know the last time I spoke with S-Cape he told me that only 4 or 5 artists on the cd actually took a copy...
So it's not only about seeing your own name on a cd, it's just about being lazy sods imho....
2) It's a sad thing so little ebellers that are not on the cd, buy it, community spirit? LOL
3) All the talk about anonymous uploading and voting because of friends politics...
I heard people complimenting other peoples dc tracks weeks before voting began, so far for anonymous voting.
Don't forget it works in 2 ways, people that recognise a track from someone they don't like because of something he or she said, can vote negative for that track, childish? sure, but you can bet it happens as well....
4) People think being on a compilation means instant stardom, when I see some reactions because the CD will be sent with the post or because it's easier to pick them up in Brussels after contacting S-Cape instead of the cd being delivered in a golden box at your doorsteps, jeeez.......
Some info : Monday 19th november i will be promoting the DCC on Netwaves, the show on Louvain's based Radio Scorpio, thanx to Embe....
If everyone ( even just everyone on the cd ) would just put in some effort, just a little, it would be easy to finance this and sell them cd's....
13 artists, everyone takes let's say 15 cd's and boom : 195 sold, with the 25 box of JMF 220 and voila , break - even......
So please, once again, support electrobel and get a DCC and spread them around, I'm sure everyone knows 10 or 15 people where they could sell a cd....
OK, SO WHO WANTS TO HELP SPREADING 25 DCC's AT TAKING BACK MONDAYS , DECEMBER 3 ?
I ask this because it may be unwise to give them away to just the first 25 people you see, more interesting would be people from some of the bands playing ( monolith / traumabikini ) ,....
I allready replied that I am willing to distribute them extra 25 on the taking back event, but not the entire night because I play there...
It's true that some sad things come to light with the DCC, for me the saddest things are :
1) Not even all the artists on the cd made an effort to get a copy, and certainly not to spread them. I allready sold 17 cd's, i know Aphone took 15 .....I know the last time I spoke with S-Cape he told me that only 4 or 5 artists on the cd actually took a copy...
So it's not only about seeing your own name on a cd, it's just about being lazy sods imho....
2) It's a sad thing so little ebellers that are not on the cd, buy it, community spirit? LOL
3) All the talk about anonymous uploading and voting because of friends politics...
I heard people complimenting other peoples dc tracks weeks before voting began, so far for anonymous voting.
Don't forget it works in 2 ways, people that recognise a track from someone they don't like because of something he or she said, can vote negative for that track, childish? sure, but you can bet it happens as well....
4) People think being on a compilation means instant stardom, when I see some reactions because the CD will be sent with the post or because it's easier to pick them up in Brussels after contacting S-Cape instead of the cd being delivered in a golden box at your doorsteps, jeeez.......
Some info : Monday 19th november i will be promoting the DCC on Netwaves, the show on Louvain's based Radio Scorpio, thanx to Embe....
If everyone ( even just everyone on the cd ) would just put in some effort, just a little, it would be easy to finance this and sell them cd's....
13 artists, everyone takes let's say 15 cd's and boom : 195 sold, with the 25 box of JMF 220 and voila , break - even......
So please, once again, support electrobel and get a DCC and spread them around, I'm sure everyone knows 10 or 15 people where they could sell a cd....
OK, SO WHO WANTS TO HELP SPREADING 25 DCC's AT TAKING BACK MONDAYS , DECEMBER 3 ?
I ask this because it may be unwise to give them away to just the first 25 people you see, more interesting would be people from some of the bands playing ( monolith / traumabikini ) ,....
Quote:
Originally posted by : Distreality
Fish , i have to say you missed something...
I allready replied that I am willing to distribute them extra 25 on the taking back event, but not the entire night because I play there...
OK, SO WHO WANTS TO HELP SPREADING 25 DCC's AT TAKING BACK MONDAYS , DECEMBER 3 ?
I ask this because it may be unwise to give them away to just the first 25 people you see, more interesting would be people from some of the bands playing ( monolith / traumabikini ) ,....
You are playing, so I don't take you into account. So far, at TBM events, other than the people playing, I put electrobel members because I promised it to them, and I think I saw 2, maybe three people on the parties. The turnout was massive so far, but that's not thanks to electrobel. It never has been. And I read some other threads about other parties where there were 10 people present supposedly being an electrobel night. It's becoming a bit of a constant thing isn't it? Or are people always going to come up with 'it's far' or 'it's on a weekday', etc.?
It's like you say, there's no community spirit. That's why I stopped putting the logo or 'officially' working with electrobel. It just doesn't make any sense to me, and with the rate S-cape's cd is going (and I think even the t-shirts were the same), why is there always so much talk about electrobel being a community and not an mp3 hosting site? It's a hosting site and a forum, ok, but certainly NOT a community of any kind. The ones that organise events like me will have noticed that (BIFFF,taking back mondays, ...), and the people putting out releases or promo gear for sale with electrobel members (S-cape, Swan, ...) will have noticed this. And some of us have been very vocal about that.
If it WERE a community there would be a bunch of people present on the December 3rd event to be at the entrance and hand those out, along with some information sheets about electrobel or whatever; Everyone knows I can print those things, but you know what? I don't even bother to ask anymore mostly here, it's just senseless. Maybe now one or two people will be jostled into action, who knows, but should it really be like that?
And I bought 25 cd's to give out to people more 'in the business' from S-cape, those get sent out with my new DVD next week (or handed out at a film festival I need to be), I was talking about handing out more, for free, at an audience, at a night where there is a public who would be INTERESTED and discovering that music since it's an EBM/Industrial night.
The way it's going, S-cape'll only get his investment back somewhere in 2008. I mean, even if it's not in my initial files, I CAN just finance the whole thing for those first 121 copies he needs to sell if it would be needed, but that shouldn't be the way it works, and thus I think it's REALLY not the moment to go talking about putting out another one. That's just IMHO because, you know, anyone can smash up some cash and print those, and get stuck with 400 unsold copies, be my guest if you want to be the next one in unsuccesfully investing into electrobel and getting no output, but what's the point?
(@Swan: I'm wondering how many of those vinyls with ebel members you sold come to think of it ;))